ROTFL! Oh, I needed that.

I’ve had the same experience with my son who is a die-hard Robert Jordan/Wheel of Time enthusiast. Oh, heck, he’s just a fan. Period. The few fantasy-type romances I’ve managed to get him to read have been met with, um, mixed success, shall we say. Although he has quite liked a few. For the worlds, underdeveloped though they are in his opinion, which I’ve finally convinced him goes with the territory so he’s okay with that aspect. He’s generally slightly less happy with the romances themselves but for the most part okay there too.

There have been a couple however that if I even mention the author to him or if he thinks I’m going to mention the author or one of their books or anything like them . . . well, let me just say the conversation is usually over except for him complaining. A lot. Strange thing is that even for all that muttering and grouching I still have really no idea why they hit such a wrong note but they did. Oh, did they.That much I get clearly.

This has been an interesting discussion because as a hard SF person married to a Romance person this topic comes up a lot over the dinner table. To me there is a lot more to what defines a book’s genre than the main subjects. For instance, my wife does not like to read the JD Robb books because they are too dark and gory. I’ve read a few and had to laugh when she said that because to me the books feel like someone took a romance, stirred in a liberal dose of ‘Law and Order’ and dressed it up with some TV computers. Any of the romance crossover books feel very lightweight to me. Comparing the paranormal romance stories to “real” paranormal (Horror/SF/Fantasy) is like comparing ‘Matlock’ to ‘Law and Order’. They have some of the same trappings but are really completely different.

I think the difference comes down to the readers personality more than anything. I prefer books that allow you to learn things at the same time I am being entertained. I’m a techno-geek and not much of a people person so I’m relatively colorblind to the varying shades of emotion involved in romance. Frankly when I occasionally read a romance-ish book (Or more likely listen to and audio version.) I find myself thinking I’ve gotten lost somewhere because a chapter has gone by and I can’t think of a single thing that actually happened.

My wife, on the other hand is a psychologist and is all about the feelings and the relationships. She tends to find most SF depressing and likes to read romance because they lift her spirits. Once I made the mistake of telling her about this really good story by Harlan Ellison…. That was fourteen years ago and to this day if I start to tell her about a story she interrupts with “Wait! It’s not by that guy who wrote that story is it?”

A recommendation for anyone who wants to read a smart Paranormal Romance (as in genre Romance): Demon Angel by Meljean Brook. I just guest reviewed this for the Smart Bitches (long ass review, for which I apologize in advance), and I think Brook has a long and successful career ahead of her.

Robin we both recommended Demon Angel, I honestly think she’s capable of becoming a superstar.

There’s a new discussion on Dear Author that readers here might find interesting…

http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2007/01/16/who-moved-my-cheese-whether-paranormal-romances-are-due-for-a-makeover/#comments

I really wish Amazon put genre in their listings, because it would help a great deal when I can’t see the newer books that are at the studio library.

Ellen Datlow, horror and dark fantasy maven, and editor extraordinaire, has been co-editing the “Year’s Best Fantasy and Horror” collection since Volume 1 (Vol 19 came out in 2006)… I wonder when or if any of the vampire stories she’s picked over the years shifted from horror to fantasy.

Maybe mystery tells you how it ends? Is it still a Mystery if the killer isn’t caught? If there is no resolution that restores the world to a state of balance and order?

I think both Mystery and Romance promise a certain closure — Romance in terms of a happy ending for the lovers and Mystery in terms of a solution. What I hear from Romance readers over and over is that they (we) love many different forms of fiction, but when we pick up a Romance some of the appeal is that we know there will be an optimistic sense of closure at the end of the book, which I would imagine is similar to the satisfaction a Mystery reader would feel when the puzzle of the novel is solved. Some fiction is pleasurable for the questions it raises and the avenues it opens up, and some fiction is pleasurable for the sense of balance and order at the end. I think the mistake that people often make about genre fiction readers is that they only like ONE type of fiction, whereas I’ve found that genre fiction fans are often very diverse in their reading tastes and that they are often pretty savvy about the different expectations and pleasures to be had with different types of books. The one real bias I get frustrated with is a bias against literary fiction I tend to run across in some Romance readers. That’s one thing I wish would change a little.

Is Romance the only genre that tells you how a story ends?
Science fiction, fantasy, horror, they tell you how a story starts, but not how it ends.

Maybe mystery tells you how it ends? Is it still a Mystery if the killer isn’t caught? If there is no resolution that restores the world to a state of balance and order?

I dunno if that means anything. Just something that occurred to me.

What DOES count as horror now? It’s not really a genre I’ve ever been interested in… I don’t read Stephen King, although I did hear part of the book with the old car and the creature that came out of the car, and I still have an icky sense when I think of the description.

It must be a case of simultaneous influence, because Romance readers have been complaining of late about the overpopulation of vamps in Romance, too. Actually, it’s comforting to me to know that we’re not the only ones suffering from this trend. Not that I have anything against vamps; it’s just that once something hits it just gets done to death.

A recommendation for anyone who wants to read a smart Paranormal Romance (as in genre Romance): Demon Angel by Meljean Brook. I just guest reviewed this for the Smart Bitches (long ass review, for which I apologize in advance), and I think Brook has a long and successful career ahead of her.

The only ones I can think of that didn’t go into SF/F would be the ones from Tananarive Due, but off the top of my head, I’m drawing a blank on anything else.

But the paranormals are showing up in SF/F, not in horror, even though the objects of affection could be considered “monsters”, so that’s where that new generalization came from.

Maybe someone should point out that Stephen King’s Salem’s Lot should be moved out of horror and into SF/F–LOL. I don’t think so.

Not everything with vampires could be considered sf/f, not by a long shot. That’s part of this whole “genre” issue, there are stories being written for all different genres that may appeal to other genre readers.

I wrote a post on defining the modern romance genre and it’s here: http://teachmetonight.blogspot.com/2006/08/defining-genre.html and I’ve got a short post on Linnea Sinclair’s definition of the difference between science fiction romance, romantic science fiction and futuristics here: http://teachmetonight.blogspot.com/2006/10/green-is-new-red-sci-fi-romance.html

You’re right that the RWA definition is relatively new. I think it was worked out around 2000, and Jenny Crusie’s written an article on how the definition was reached, which is here: http://www.jennycrusie.com/essays/definingromancegenre.php

The RWA definition and descriptions of most of the romance sub-genres are available here: https://www.rwanational.org/eweb/Dynamicpage.aspx?webkey=44d21e52-c0c5-4e22-bf39-852b56710057

As I live in the UK, where there mostly aren’t any romance or romantic fiction sections (other than in the libraries), I can’t really add anything to the debate about labelling or shelving in bookshops, or labelling by publishers (since most of those romances never make it across here).

Actually, if it’s a Paranormal Romance, within the genre definition, it usually is shelved in Romance (perhaps it’s also shelved in SF/F but I don’t know about that). The reason the Anita Blake books by Hamilton aren’t in the Romance section, for example, is that they don’t center on a love relationship and don’t conform to the happy ending for the lovers. But there is a ton of genre Romance being published that is written specifically within the genre guidelines, but also features paranormal elements (Sarah Frantz’s definition on the Teach Me Tonight blog is very good, IMO) and that is shelved and sold as Romance. And while some of it can get confusing at a point, I think there’s enough mainstream Romance published with paranormal elements that most Romance readers are going to view the term “paranormal romance” as synonymous with the mass output of genre Romance with paranormal elements. As Kat said above, why try to market the term “romance” to SF/F or other fiction readers?

And yes, honestly, the last time I wandered through the Romance section, book publishers were not putting genre defs on the back cover or the spine

But they’re not, because Romance novels are marketed very specifically, and if you put “Romance” on the spine, that means it goes on the Romance shelves — and most general fiction or other genre publishers DON’T want their books going there, for precisely the reasons you and your pole and hazmat suit don’t. The next time you’re in a bookstore, check the Romance section and you’ll see. I, for example, adore Charlaine Harris’s Sookie Stackhouse/southern vampire series, and while it has very very strong romantic elements, it’s not a Romance and it’s not shelved in Romance. So I don’t know if it’s so much splitting your thinking in terms of shelving v. genre labels, because the Romance label is what creates the shelving thing, and the Romance label is a genre label.

One thing I think it’s important to remember, too, is that when we talk about old-style romance, we’re sometimes applying a term given retroactively to what we recognize as a genre or perhaps more accurately, a style of writing. The genre of Romance novels are defined contemporaneously with their publication, which is another reason I don’t see how it’s so easy to just “broaden” the definition in the way that some of these alternative paranormal romance publishers want to. Within the genre, we have all sorts of discussions about broadening or narrowing the genre, but the frame of reference — at the most basic level — is the same in that we are all working off the same bare bones paradigm of a central love story with an optimistic ending. So the stakes are different right off the bat.

So, basically, we’re looking for a word for stories with relationship-based fantasy and paranormal decorated plots that will not guarantee you how they end.

Romantic Fantasy seems like it should work, no? Because “romatic” is a modifier of Fantasy, therefore not implying that it’s part of the Romance genre, so those folks wouldn’t get tricked.

Although I’m still in favor of using elvish.

wander through not wonder through–LOL.

Personally, I always thought the time travel thing was a little weak to hang a story on, but that’s just my personal peeve.

Something we agree on–LOL. With time travel so much depends on the story itself once the time leap has been made and what the characters ultimate goal is once back/forward in time.

My question should have been stated more clearly: where do the non-hybrid yet relationship focused novels get shelved, if not in the romance section? Do the publishers label those as “Love Story / Fiction�, or do they end up in “Romance / Love Story�?

I don’t think I’ve ever seen the words “Love Story” on a book spine. It seems to me you need to wonder through a bookstore and read the spines–LOL.

Within the Romance section you should only find books with HEA endings. Pretty much anything that qualifies as a “Love Story” that doesn’t fall within another genre will be in “General Fiction”. Anything by Nicholas Sparks, The Bridges of Madison County, the book Love Story, all will be found in General Fiction.

I would lean more towards urban and paranormal, not so much with the steampunk and time travelers. But I’m sure other readers might be interested in the others, so don’t let my personal tastes hold you back.

As for hybrids, it depends on the genres. I like SF/F crossed with detective or action thrillers. For the relationship story, if someone falls in love with a werewolf and they either go their separate ways or one of them dies at the end (and it’s consistent with the story and not just forced in for shock value), then I might read it, but I’d still think of it as a romance novel, or now that I know better, a romantic novel.

My question should have been stated more clearly: where do the non-hybrid yet relationship focused novels get shelved, if not in the romance section? Do the publishers label those as “Love Story / Fiction”, or do they end up in “Romance / Love Story”?

So, where do the love stories without HEA endings normally go, as a subgenre of romance or elsewhere in fiction?

I think this would be a question for the person stocking the shelves at a bookstore. But, it seems to me they would probably be shelved by whatever is on their spine… general fiction, sf, fantasy, mystery, suspense… etc. This is why it’s so important for a publisher to market correctly, and label for the correct market.

So, what would you be interested in… paranormals (vampires, werewolves, ghosts…), urban fantasy (alternate realities), steampunk (Victorian alternate reality, which I would think you’re probably more familiar than I, the term steampunk not steampunk romances), futuristics, time travels… all of the above?

Conceptually I think a “hybrid” section of a bookstore isn’t really a bad idea. It would allow readers to find books from different genres that may have some crossover appeal. But would a person who wouldn’t enter romance entire this section either?

Splitting the distinction between a section in the bookstore and a specific type of love story (HEA only) has been what’s hardest to wrap my brain around this past week.

Until this crossover story discussion thread, I didn’t know that having a happy ending made a difference in what to call the story. I had always thought that no matter how the story ended, if it focused on a passionate love affair of any sort, it was still a romance. Period.

And I know for a fact that I’m not the only non-romance reader who thinks that. It also sounds like some writers are getting non-HEA stories published as romances, and that doesn’t help with the confusion.

So, where do the love stories without HEA endings normally go, as a subgenre of romance or elsewhere in fiction?

I’m not quite sure what you mean here, so I don’t know how to respond. If you’re talking about romance in the large adventure, quest sense v. the Romance novel, I still think there are some clear distinctions. For example, if you look at some of the fiction from the early and mid19th century, epecially that which women wrote — i.e. Uncle Tom’s Cabin — we refer to it under the term “Sentimental novel,” which has specific generic characteristics. The modern and contemporary Romance novel isn’t synonymous with Sir Gawain, and, as Tara Marie said, publishers absolutely know this. So as far as genre fiction per se goes, the term Romance novel means love story + happy ending. Because I have a PhD in English, I can trace many of the forbears of the Romance novel, but I wouldn’t call any of them that because they have other names (the captivity narrative, for example, or sentimental fiction, or classical Comedy like that which Shakespeare wrote).

As for “Paranormal Romance,” it has been a subgenre of Romance novels for 20 years, I guess, at least according to the article Cynthia Ward wrote for the SF Review. In the past 5 years or so, though, it has been one of the hottest subgenres of the Romance novel, so popular that even authors writing in other subs have crossed over to grab the readership. Now if that wasn’t that case, and Juno came along and called their books “paranormal romance,” I’d be feeling less jaded about their intentions. What concerns me, though, is the possibility that one of the reasons they want to use the term is to cash in on Romance novel readers bucks and not simply to revive an older genre and definition, so when the idea of “broadening” the genre comes from those outside it, and the readers who feel taken advantage of also comprise a HUGE piece of the market, it feels less about trying to effectively designate a hybrid and more about trying to penetrate the Romance and SF/F markets as directly as possible (but without the goods in some case, at least for traditional Romance readers).

And please, if you know which paranormals are good and which ones to avoid, provide me a list, and I’ll even add it as a post here! Even better, provide me with full reviews of the recommended ones, and they definitely don’t have to be HEA.

I’ve read two romance books that I would classify, were it my job, under Romance – Fantasy. One was a Dark Hunters book and one was Christina Feehan and had vampires. There were both extremely formulaic, imo.

Yikes!! PLEASE do not judge Romance or Paranormal Romance by Christine Feehan. Her “Dark…” series are some of the worst books I’ve ever read. PLEASE do try Meljean Brook’s debut novel Demon Angel, a wonderful book and not formulaic. You may also like to try Lynn Viehl’s Darkyn Series or Susan Squires Companion series (though the last in the Companion series wasn’t that good) both technically write “Paranormal Romance” because the books end with a HEA but both are vampire series but much different from the angst of Ms. Feehan’s pathetically brooding, self-absorbed heros and spineless heroines.